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Figaro

Usenet Poster
ponsellite@yahoo.com
Posted on:
Nov 12, 2007, 6:01 PM

Post #1 of 88 (230 views)
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Any real-life pilots on this group? Not logged in -   Reply 

I am wondering...are you guys serious aviators who have (or are
planning to get) your pilot's license or are content being armchair
pilots the rest of your lives?

As far as I know, Microsoft's flight sim series is great fun to play
but is not FAA-certified as a pilot training tool. That honor goes to
X-Plane. I also think Flight Unlimited offers better flight lessons
for serious would-be pilots than Microsoft.

Nothing wrong with flying (or golfing) on the computer. Just not the
same thing!

Figaro




"Oskar Wagner"

Usenet Poster
rengaw@swissonline.ch
Posted on:
Nov 12, 2007, 6:34 PM

Post #2 of 88 (230 views)
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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to Figaro] Not logged in -   Reply 

Well, just to make it clear, a software alone - and this is also valid for
X-Plane - will most certainly never be certified for any kind of flight
taining. It's always in conjunciton with a certain hardware setup such as
http://www.flypfc.com/ for X-plane. That's the reason for the nice reminder
on your x-plane copy: "This is not a FAA-certified software"... Smile)

However I'm almost 100% sure that even FS9 or FSX could be certified for
pilots training if someone would intend to go through the whole certifying
process with a decent hardware setup. My guess is that the market figures
are not as high as someone would expect and thus not really encouraging
people for another certified system. And another remark on that occasion:
looking at the panels of the certified hardware on the above URL it is
obvious that this setup can only be used as IMC procedure trainer as the
panels do in no way reflect the true A/C. This is especially true for the
bigger ones like C421C and the Beech Turboprops.
--
Oskar
- - - - -
Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes...

"Figaro" <ponsellite@yahoo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1194908483.690423.245870@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>I am wondering...are you guys serious aviators who have (or are
> planning to get) your pilot's license or are content being armchair
> pilots the rest of your lives?
>
> As far as I know, Microsoft's flight sim series is great fun to play
> but is not FAA-certified as a pilot training tool. That honor goes to
> X-Plane. I also think Flight Unlimited offers better flight lessons
> for serious would-be pilots than Microsoft.
>
> Nothing wrong with flying (or golfing) on the computer. Just not the
> same thing!
>
> Figaro
>




"Quilljar"

Usenet Poster
Not@home.today
Posted on:
Nov 12, 2007, 6:39 PM

Post #3 of 88 (230 views)
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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to "Oskar Wagner"] Not logged in -   Reply 

Yes, there are quite a number of real life pilots on this group and some who
have been taking their PPLs with help from the sim. You will soon find out
who's who if you stick around!

--
Yrs Quilly





"RandyL"

Usenet Poster
rlink@cableone.net
Posted on:
Nov 12, 2007, 7:45 PM

Post #4 of 88 (230 views)
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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to Figaro] Not logged in -   Reply 

Hi Figaro,
I like to think of myself as a "serious pilot" and have a private pilot
license with a glider rating, with about 95 hours logged in a Cessna 172,
and about 115 hours logged in sailplanes. But I also like to think of myself
as being a serious armchair PC flightsim pilot also. I don't think that the
two are mutually exclusive. They are both fun to me. I enjoy the heck out of
going out and renting a C172 and going flying for a couple of hours (well, I
don't enjoy paying the bill!) I also enjoy the heck out of booting up my PC
and flying a Grumman G21A Goose from a high mountain lake. Nothing gives me
the thrill of piloting a real aircraft. But then again, with MS FS I can
"fly" aircraft for free that in real life I could never even afford to sit
in, and I can fly them anyplace in the world and under any conditions that I
want. People make a decision - for various perfectly valid reasons - to fly
a flight simulator rather than go through the time, and significant expense,
of pursuing a pilots license. It is their decision to make.
One can argue the various merits of Microsoft Flight Simulator versus
X-Plane, or Flight Unlimited, or Flight Gear, etc. But it simply comes down
to each persons personal preferences. I have "flown" all of the major
civilian and military PC flight sims for the last 20 years, including
X-Plane and Flight Unlimited. X-Plane has a lot to to offer. Flight
Unlimited was way ahead of its time. However, it doesn't matter to me if
Microsoft Flight Simulator is not FAA-certified. You are not going to find
ANY flight simulator that is going to give you 100% of the experience that
flying a real aircraft does. But in my opinion as a licensed pilot Microsoft
Flight Simulator is the closest program overall to flying a real aircraft,
given the price of the program, the complexities of what it is trying to
model, and the capabilities of the computer system that it was designed to
run on.

Randy L.
--
Remember: Any landing that you can walk away from,
is a landing that you can be fined, sued, or prosecuted for.


"Figaro" <ponsellite@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1194908483.690423.245870@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>I am wondering...are you guys serious aviators who have (or are
> planning to get) your pilot's license or are content being armchair
> pilots the rest of your lives?
>
> As far as I know, Microsoft's flight sim series is great fun to play
> but is not FAA-certified as a pilot training tool. That honor goes to
> X-Plane. I also think Flight Unlimited offers better flight lessons
> for serious would-be pilots than Microsoft.
>
> Nothing wrong with flying (or golfing) on the computer. Just not the
> same thing!
>
> Figaro
>



Dallas

Usenet Poster
Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com
Posted on:
Nov 12, 2007, 9:14 PM

Post #5 of 88 (229 views)
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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to Figaro] Not logged in -   Reply 

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:01:23 -0800, Figaro wrote:

> I am wondering...are you guys serious aviators who have (or are
> planning to get) your pilot's license

I haven't done the exact math, but I'd guesstimate that 25% of the regulars
of this group hold a pilot certificate in some form or other.

--
Dallas



"Roger (K8RI)"

Usenet Poster
validaddress@my.com
Posted on:
Nov 12, 2007, 9:40 PM

Post #6 of 88 (229 views)
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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to "Oskar Wagner"] Not logged in -   Reply 

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 00:34:38 +0100, "Oskar Wagner"
<rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote:

>Well, just to make it clear, a software alone - and this is also valid for
>X-Plane - will most certainly never be certified for any kind of flight
>taining. It's always in conjunciton with a certain hardware setup such as
>http://www.flypfc.com/ for X-plane. That's the reason for the nice reminder
>on your x-plane copy: "This is not a FAA-certified software"... Smile)

Even then for it to count you need to have an instructor present for
the time to count unless they've changed the rules.
>

Roger (K8RI)

>However I'm almost 100% sure that even FS9 or FSX could be certified for
>pilots training if someone would intend to go through the whole certifying
>process with a decent hardware setup. My guess is that the market figures
>are not as high as someone would expect and thus not really encouraging
>people for another certified system. And another remark on that occasion:
>looking at the panels of the certified hardware on the above URL it is
>obvious that this setup can only be used as IMC procedure trainer as the
>panels do in no way reflect the true A/C. This is especially true for the
>bigger ones like C421C and the Beech Turboprops.



Mxsmanic

Usenet Poster
mxsmanic@gmail.com
Posted on:
Nov 12, 2007, 10:00 PM

Post #7 of 88 (229 views)
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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to Figaro] Not logged in -   Reply 

Figaro writes:

> I am wondering...are you guys serious aviators who have (or are
> planning to get) your pilot's license or are content being armchair
> pilots the rest of your lives?

It's possible to be serious about simulation, too.

> As far as I know, Microsoft's flight sim series is great fun to play
> but is not FAA-certified as a pilot training tool. That honor goes to
> X-Plane.

Actually, neither program is certified for this purpose. The FAA has
certified complete, specific configurations of hardware and software that
incorporate X-Plane, but not X-Plane itself. Conceivably the same could be
done for MSFS, but I'm sure Microsoft has no interest in that.

> Nothing wrong with flying (or golfing) on the computer. Just not the
> same thing!

Then why do you ask how anyone could be "content being armchair pilots"?



Ted

Usenet Poster
tkennedy63@msn.com
Posted on:
Nov 12, 2007, 11:15 PM

Post #8 of 88 (229 views)
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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to Mxsmanic] Not logged in -   Reply 

On Nov 12, 8:00 pm, Mxsmanic <mxsma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Figaro writes:
> > I am wondering...are you guys serious aviators who have (or are
> > planning to get) your pilot's license or are content being armchair
> > pilots the rest of your lives?
>
> It's possible to be serious about simulation, too.
>
> > As far as I know, Microsoft's flight sim series is great fun to play
> > but is not FAA-certified as a pilot training tool. That honor goes to
> > X-Plane.
>
> Actually, neither program is certified for this purpose. The FAA has
> certified complete, specific configurations of hardware and software that
> incorporate X-Plane, but not X-Plane itself. Conceivably the same could be
> done for MSFS, but I'm sure Microsoft has no interest in that.
>
> > Nothing wrong with flying (or golfing) on the computer. Just not the
> > same thing!
>
> Then why do you ask how anyone could be "content being armchair pilots"?

As for me, former AF F4-C. Haven't been in the cockpit since Nam and
no desire to to.




"Canuck"

Usenet Poster
someone@shaw.com
Posted on:
Nov 12, 2007, 11:57 PM

Post #9 of 88 (229 views)
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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to Dallas] Not logged in -   Reply 

Is it just me, being the cynic or is there a sneering quality to the OP?

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:16fvo4nhl9yim$.1t7iy5600ps1s.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:01:23 -0800, Figaro wrote:
>
>> I am wondering...are you guys serious aviators who have (or are
>> planning to get) your pilot's license
>
> I haven't done the exact math, but I'd guesstimate that 25% of the
> regulars
> of this group hold a pilot certificate in some form or other.
>
> --
> Dallas




"ManhattanMan"

Usenet Poster
umama@binlaidon.com
Posted on:
Nov 13, 2007, 12:02 AM

Post #10 of 88 (229 views)
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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to Ted] Not logged in -   Reply 

Ted wrote:
>
> As for me, former AF F4-C. Haven't been in the cockpit since Nam and
> no desire to to.

Good answer to mxmoron TROLL Ted! He's never flown, can't fly, won't ever
fly, would wet his diapers if the narcissistic, arrogant, conceited,
neurotic, pious, prick ever entered a cockpit, but still trys to be the
expert on real life flying experiences, or what they mean to those that
have. What a total funking loser..........




"Mortimer Schnerd, RN"

Usenet Poster
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
Posted on:
Nov 13, 2007, 3:03 AM

Post #11 of 88 (229 views)
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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to "Canuck"] Not logged in -   Reply 

Canuck wrote:
> Is it just me, being the cynic or is there a sneering quality to the OP?


I thought there was.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com




Marcel Kuijper

Usenet Poster
zoepetier@hotmail.com
Posted on:
Nov 13, 2007, 6:14 AM

Post #12 of 88 (229 views)
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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to "Canuck"] Not logged in -   Reply 

"Canuck" wrote:

> Is it just me, being the cynic or is there a sneering quality to the OP?

Nope, I caught that too.
I've always found the term "armchair pilot" to be somewhat demeaning.

Mr. Figaro might just be right up there with mxmoron, looking for
shit, or
he may be a RL pilot. Who knows? And who will believe him?


Marcel




Gregory

Usenet Poster
flightsim.maps@bkwds.comcast.net
Posted on:
Nov 13, 2007, 6:40 AM

Post #13 of 88 (229 views)
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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to Dallas] Not logged in -   Reply 

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:14:46 -0600, Dallas
<Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> scribed thusly:

>On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:01:23 -0800, Figaro wrote:
>
>> I am wondering...are you guys serious aviators who have (or are
>> planning to get) your pilot's license
>
>I haven't done the exact math, but I'd guesstimate that 25% of the regulars
>of this group hold a pilot certificate in some form or other.


The OP was almost worded so that non-aviators could reply.
Anyway, how about adding an appropriate column to the Roster:

http://home.comcast.net/~flightsim/FS_roster.xls

Well.. you did say "exact math" and that means a spreadsheet!!

-G




"Crash Lander"

Usenet Poster
here@there.com.nz
Posted on:
Nov 13, 2007, 6:48 AM

Post #14 of 88 (229 views)
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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to Figaro] Not logged in -   Reply 

Figaro wrote:

> I am wondering...are you guys serious aviators who have (or are
> planning to get) your pilot's license or are content being armchair
> pilots the rest of your lives?
>
> As far as I know, Microsoft's flight sim series is great fun to play
> but is not FAA-certified as a pilot training tool. That honor goes to
> X-Plane. I also think Flight Unlimited offers better flight lessons
> for serious would-be pilots than Microsoft.
>
> Nothing wrong with flying (or golfing) on the computer. Just not the
> same thing!
>
> Figaro

Anyone who IS a serious aviator, who has, or plans to get their pilots
licence, would never use a $100 program as a training tool.

--
Crash Lander.
Straight and Level Down Under Forum.
http://www.straightandleveldownunder.net



"Crash Lander"

Usenet Poster
here@there.com.nz
Posted on:
Nov 13, 2007, 6:48 AM

Post #15 of 88 (229 views)
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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to "Canuck"] Not logged in -   Reply 

Canuck wrote:

> Is it just me, being the cynic or is there a sneering quality to the
> OP?

Nope, not just you.

--
Crash Lander.
Straight and Level Down Under Forum.
http://www.straightandleveldownunder.net


"Quilljar"

Usenet Poster
Not@home.today
Posted on:
Nov 13, 2007, 6:53 AM

Post #16 of 88 (229 views)
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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to Figaro] Not logged in -   Reply 

I don't mind a benign troll. Such a person often starts a good thread, but
watch out if you are a big-headed troll because they have been seriously
seen off on this NG in the past!

--
Yrs Quilly


"Figaro" <ponsellite@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1194908483.690423.245870@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>I am wondering...are you guys serious aviators who have (or are
> planning to get) your pilot's license or are content being armchair
> pilots the rest of your lives?
>
> As far as I know, Microsoft's flight sim series is great fun to play
> but is not FAA-certified as a pilot training tool. That honor goes to
> X-Plane. I also think Flight Unlimited offers better flight lessons
> for serious would-be pilots than Microsoft.
>
> Nothing wrong with flying (or golfing) on the computer. Just not the
> same thing!
>
> Figaro
>




"Iain Smith"

Usenet Poster
iainsmithdotrugbyatbtinternetdotcom
Posted on:
Nov 13, 2007, 7:26 AM

Post #17 of 88 (229 views)
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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to "Canuck"] Not logged in -   Reply 

 
"Canuck" <someone@shaw.com> wrote in message
news:f9a_i.205852$1y4.17904@pd7urf2no...
> Is it just me, being the cynic or is there a sneering quality to the OP?
>
Yes Canuck, I detected that too and thought it was just me! Smile

Iain




"Ed Medlin"

Usenet Poster
ed@edmedlin.com
Posted on:
Nov 13, 2007, 7:32 AM

Post #18 of 88 (229 views)
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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to Figaro] Not logged in -   Reply 

 
"Figaro" <ponsellite@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1194908483.690423.245870@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>I am wondering...are you guys serious aviators who have (or are
> planning to get) your pilot's license or are content being armchair
> pilots the rest of your lives?
>
> As far as I know, Microsoft's flight sim series is great fun to play
> but is not FAA-certified as a pilot training tool. That honor goes to
> X-Plane. I also think Flight Unlimited offers better flight lessons
> for serious would-be pilots than Microsoft.
>
> Nothing wrong with flying (or golfing) on the computer. Just not the
> same thing!
>
> Figaro
>
Actually, at my flight school FBO, they have a Cessna simulator that has a
full panel, yoke, rudder etc that uses FS (forget which version). It is
labled "Practice Only" and is mostly used for IFR practice. Flight students
were not allowed to use it during their training and were urged not to mess
with any GA simulations while in training. I have used about every
simulation that has ever been released and I find that MSFS is hands down
the best overall for realism and physics. I don't fly much 'heavy iron' but
generally stay with the smaller AC and STOL AC. As for your other question,
yes, there are many real pilots here.


Ed




Dallas

Usenet Poster
Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com
Posted on:
Nov 13, 2007, 12:49 PM

Post #19 of 88 (229 views)
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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to "Crash Lander"] Not logged in -   Reply 

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:48:00 +0000 (UTC), Crash Lander wrote:

> Anyone who IS a serious aviator, who has, or plans to get their pilots
> licence, would never use a $100 program as a training tool.

Huh?

I do.
--
Dallas



Gypsy Baron

Usenet Poster
no-one@aol.com
Posted on:
Nov 13, 2007, 1:27 PM

Post #20 of 88 (229 views)
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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to "Canuck"] Not logged in -   Reply 

Canuck wrote:
>
> Is it just me, being the cynic or is there a sneering quality to the OP?
>

I "read" that as well, Canuck...

Paul



manbird

User
Member Since: Dec 2006
476 posts

Posted on:
Nov 13, 2007, 3:54 PM

Post #21 of 88 (228 views)
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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to Figaro] Not logged in -   Reply 

On the contrary, Microsoft not being FAA certified has nothing to do with how good it is. It's virtually impossible for the government to certify a program that allows you to fly the EXACT same airplane made by different plan makers (both payware and freeware), that's the ONLY reason it is not certified. You will find that the only FAA approved sims out there are sims that are programmed to fly ONE version of the same plane. This version is then certified by the government as acceptable for pilot training.

So make no mistake in assuming that MS flight sim is not a train-able software, because it is. I'm tired of hearing people say the same ol "well, you can't feel the gravity forces and periphiral vision isn't the same there for it ain't real by a long shot", Technically, a good payware aircraft is almost exactly like a real airplane, in it's behavior, systems and performance.

The version of X-PLANE you by for your home computer is NOT FAA Certified. The certification consists of a combined X-plane software (specific and older version) WITH FAA approved Flight controls and in some cases motion based simulation hardware. So you are compeltely wrong.

Flight Unlimited does NOT offer better flight lessons because it uses a generic flight calculation model that is flawed from the very begining.

I am a pilot, and flying the simulator C-172 by Carenado in MSFS is 90% the same as flying the real C-172 minus the physical forces.
So enough with the "it's a game" bullshit. If you do the challenges in the simulator or play some kind of "first one to get there get's 5 points" flight, then yeah, i guess it is a game. But the rest of us who use it, it is used as a learning and simulating tool. therefore it isn't a game.
Games are not defined by reality or lack thereof. A football game is a game played in reality. A "Game" that does not involve winning or scoring is NOT a game. MSFS has nothing to do with winning or scoring, therefore it is not a game. enough already.


SnakeEyes

Usenet Poster
agalspector@hotmail.com
Posted on:
Nov 13, 2007, 4:42 PM

Post #22 of 88 (227 views)
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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to manbird] Not logged in -   Reply 

On Nov 13, 3:55 pm, manbird <manb...@forums.simradar.com> wrote:
MSFS has nothing to do with winning or scoring,
> therefore it is not a game. enough already.

Absolutely right, MB. Now.....tell us you have a spectacular new
video in the works and I'll leave you alone : )

Arthur






"ManhattanMan"

Usenet Poster
umama@binlaidon.com
Posted on:
Nov 13, 2007, 6:00 PM

Post #23 of 88 (227 views)
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SnakeEyes wrote:
> On Nov 13, 3:55 pm, manbird <manb...@forums.simradar.com> wrote:
> MSFS has nothing to do with winning or scoring,
>> therefore it is not a game. enough already.
>
> Absolutely right, MB. Now.....tell us you have a spectacular new
> video in the works and I'll leave you alone : )
>


I'm proud of you Snake! Didn't even mention bagpipes'r nothin...... Smile




"Crash Lander"

Usenet Poster
here@there.com.nz
Posted on:
Nov 13, 2007, 6:16 PM

Post #24 of 88 (227 views)
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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to Dallas] Not logged in -   Reply 

Dallas wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:48:00 +0000 (UTC), Crash Lander wrote:
>
> > Anyone who IS a serious aviator, who has, or plans to get their
> > pilots licence, would never use a $100 program as a training tool.
>
> Huh?
>
> I do.

Talking solely here Dally.

--
Crash Lander.
Straight and Level Down Under Forum.
http://www.straightandleveldownunder.net


manbird

User
Member Since: Dec 2006
476 posts

Posted on:
Nov 13, 2007, 8:01 PM

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Re: Any real-life pilots on this group? [In reply to SnakeEyes] Not logged in -   Reply 

   
MSFS has nothing to do with winning or scoring,
> therefore it is not a game. enough already.

Absolutely right, MB. Now.....tell us you have a spectacular new
video in the works and I'll leave you alone : )

Arthur
**********************************************

Hi Snakeyes! I'm actually working on a commercial tutorial video!!!! That's the only reason I haven't posted any new vids as of late!!! :) Soon enough my friend....soon enough...


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