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"Moke G"

Usenet Poster
moke@gibboni.greatxscape .net
Posted on:
Nov 11, 2007, 10:22 AM

Post #1 of 29 (70 views)
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Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! Not logged in -   Reply 

There are games out there with scenery just as complicated and dense (if not
more so) than FSX's major cities/airports and have frame rates far in excess
of FSX. To me, FSX scenery has been created in a very inefficient manner and
I'm sure MS could have done much better.

Let's hope FS11 brings more REALISTIC scenery (utilising Google Earth
maybe?) and much more efficiently created to give us frame rates up in the
30's and 40's as the kids are getting now with all these shooting/killing
type games.


Moke G.




"Moke G"

Usenet Poster
moke@gibboni.greatxscape .net
Posted on:
Nov 11, 2007, 10:24 AM

Post #2 of 29 (70 views)
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Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to "Moke G"] Not logged in -   Reply 

 
"Moke G" <moke@gibboni.greatxscape .net> wrote in message
news:c7FZi.38598$9Y3.18591@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
> There are games out there with scenery just as complicated and dense (if
> not more so) than FSX's major cities/airports and have frame rates far in
> excess of FSX. To me, FSX scenery has been created in a very inefficient
> manner and I'm sure MS could have done much better.
>
> Let's hope FS11 brings more REALISTIC scenery (utilising Google Earth
> maybe?) and much more efficiently created to give us frame rates up in the
> 30's and 40's as the kids are getting now with all these shooting/killing
> type games.
>
>
> Moke G.


Sorry, I meant more ACCURATE scenery rather than realistic!


Moke G.




"Rob Pollard"

Usenet Poster
robertapollard@hotmail.com
Posted on:
Nov 11, 2007, 10:43 AM

Post #3 of 29 (69 views)
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Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to "Moke G"] Not logged in -   Reply 

 
"Moke G" <moke@gibboni.greatxscape .net> wrote in message
news:u8FZi.38599$9Y3.12063@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
>
> "Moke G" <moke@gibboni.greatxscape .net> wrote in message
> news:c7FZi.38598$9Y3.18591@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
>> There are games out there with scenery just as complicated and dense (if
>> not more so) than FSX's major cities/airports and have frame rates far in
>> excess of FSX. To me, FSX scenery has been created in a very inefficient
>> manner and I'm sure MS could have done much better.
>>
>> Let's hope FS11 brings more REALISTIC scenery (utilising Google Earth
>> maybe?) and much more efficiently created to give us frame rates up in
>> the 30's and 40's as the kids are getting now with all these
>> shooting/killing type games.
>>
>>
>> Moke G.
>
>
> Sorry, I meant more ACCURATE scenery rather than realistic!
>
>
> Moke G.
>
>

For this to happen MS will need to re-work the FS series. I know it would be
big pain for everyone out there, but I think the FS series is coming close
to the end of its usefull life. They need to scrap everything and go at it
using the latest technologies and techniques available. I for one would be
happy to loose backward compatibility for the sake of the future of this
title.

RobP




troppo1

Enthusiast
Member Since: May 2006
542 posts

Posted on:
Nov 11, 2007, 10:47 AM

Post #4 of 29 (69 views)
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Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to "Moke G"] Not logged in -   Reply 

The shooting killing games get better FPS than FSX because the powers that be prefer kids today to shoot 10 or 15 poeple and not run a plane full of people into buildings killing 1000's.
Pure economics really.
http://www.IVIBE.com
http://www.FS-GS.com
Intellivibe guarantees you better Vibrations sitting in the cockpit / racecar ..
FS-GS guarantees you better Frame Rates for a lot less than a costly upgrade ..


"Slap"

Usenet Poster
slap@gmail.com
Posted on:
Nov 11, 2007, 10:58 AM

Post #5 of 29 (69 views)
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Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to "Moke G"] Not logged in -   Reply 

 

"Moke G" <moke@gibboni.greatxscape .net> wrote in message
news:c7FZi.38598$9Y3.18591@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
> There are games out there with scenery just as complicated and dense (if
> not more so) than FSX's major cities/airports and have frame rates far in
> excess of FSX. To me, FSX scenery has been created in a very inefficient
> manner and I'm sure MS could have done much better.
>
> Let's hope FS11 brings more REALISTIC scenery (utilising Google Earth
> maybe?) and much more efficiently created to give us frame rates up in the
> 30's and 40's as the kids are getting now with all these shooting/killing
> type games.
>
>
> Moke G.
>

You just don't understand Flight Simulation.

I do believe you can buy Flight Games that do not have a problem with
displaying complicated scenery at a high frame rate. In fact I'm sure you
can.

Flight Simulator on the other hand is not really a game. For example you
can, just as a real life pilot, plot a course from A to B... along with a
hundred or so other things to get you there.

Flight simulator is just that, and to do that, it spends a lot of time
figuring out where it is in relationship to the stars, moon, sun, ground
etc. Then it has to get the weather, interface with other aircraft in the
area, GPS stuff, ILS stuff. Figure out how much air is going over the wings
and what to do about it. A lot of stuff that takes a fair bit of the
computers time. Then when it isn't busy doing that it will throw stuff up
on the screen.

We want it so MS has in the last couple releases started to add a pretty
face. FSX it is starting to do quite a nice job of that but that's not
really what Flight Simulation is about.

Suggest you turn off the Frame Rate Display (takes computing power anyway to
calculate and display info) and enjoy the simulation. If you can't get
smooth flight you can go back a series or two where the scenery isn't quite
as complex. You could also use the excuse to get a real nice state of the
art computer that might be good for a couple of years.

Or you could buy some flight game 'shoot em up' that doesn't really model
anything but satisfies your need to see a high frame rate display. Then you
can tell your friends yours is bigger.

--
dave






"Slap"

Usenet Poster
slap@gmail.com
Posted on:
Nov 11, 2007, 11:07 AM

Post #6 of 29 (69 views)
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Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to "Moke G"] Not logged in -   Reply 

 

"Moke G" <moke@gibboni.greatxscape .net> wrote in message
news:u8FZi.38599$9Y3.12063@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
>
> "Moke G" <moke@gibboni.greatxscape .net> wrote in message
> news:c7FZi.38598$9Y3.18591@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
>
> Sorry, I meant more ACCURATE scenery rather than realistic!
>
>
> Moke G.

Each release adds more accuracy. For example FSX adds an accurate road
system. Not all the roads but the major ones. prior to FSX the rail system
was ok, parks, golf courses, etc. Flight Simulator gets better with each
release.

If you can't wait till the next release you can always 'add on' with third
party stuff. A good one would be Ultimate Terrain here...
http://www.scenerysolutions.com/

It does have an influence on frame rates tho, which I think you were
commenting about in the original post.

--
dave





"Quilljar"

Usenet Poster
Not@home.today
Posted on:
Nov 11, 2007, 11:22 AM

Post #7 of 29 (69 views)
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Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to "Slap"] Not logged in -   Reply 

Flight simulation does not need those high frame rates at all. 25 fps is all
you need for perfect flight. I am getting 60-70 fps with FS9 on my new rig,
and while it is entertaining, it is no smoother than the 25 I get with FSX.

--
Yrs Quilly


"Slap" <slap@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:rEFZi.199091$Da.2970@pd7urf1no...
>
>
> "Moke G" <moke@gibboni.greatxscape .net> wrote in message
> news:c7FZi.38598$9Y3.18591@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
>> There are games out there with scenery just as complicated and dense (if
>> not more so) than FSX's major cities/airports and have frame rates far in
>> excess of FSX. To me, FSX scenery has been created in a very inefficient
>> manner and I'm sure MS could have done much better.
>>
>> Let's hope FS11 brings more REALISTIC scenery (utilising Google Earth
>> maybe?) and much more efficiently created to give us frame rates up in
>> the 30's and 40's as the kids are getting now with all these
>> shooting/killing type games.
>>
>>
>> Moke G.
>>
>
> You just don't understand Flight Simulation.
>
> I do believe you can buy Flight Games that do not have a problem with
> displaying complicated scenery at a high frame rate. In fact I'm sure you
> can.
>
> Flight Simulator on the other hand is not really a game. For example you
> can, just as a real life pilot, plot a course from A to B... along with a
> hundred or so other things to get you there.
>
> Flight simulator is just that, and to do that, it spends a lot of time
> figuring out where it is in relationship to the stars, moon, sun, ground
> etc. Then it has to get the weather, interface with other aircraft in the
> area, GPS stuff, ILS stuff. Figure out how much air is going over the
> wings and what to do about it. A lot of stuff that takes a fair bit of
> the computers time. Then when it isn't busy doing that it will throw
> stuff up on the screen.
>
> We want it so MS has in the last couple releases started to add a pretty
> face. FSX it is starting to do quite a nice job of that but that's not
> really what Flight Simulation is about.
>
> Suggest you turn off the Frame Rate Display (takes computing power anyway
> to calculate and display info) and enjoy the simulation. If you can't get
> smooth flight you can go back a series or two where the scenery isn't
> quite as complex. You could also use the excuse to get a real nice state
> of the art computer that might be good for a couple of years.
>
> Or you could buy some flight game 'shoot em up' that doesn't really model
> anything but satisfies your need to see a high frame rate display. Then
> you can tell your friends yours is bigger.
>
> --
> dave
>
>
>




"Moke G"

Usenet Poster
moke@gibboni.greatxscape .net
Posted on:
Nov 11, 2007, 11:36 AM

Post #8 of 29 (69 views)
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Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to "Slap"] Not logged in -   Reply 

 
"Slap" <slap@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:rEFZi.199091$Da.2970@pd7urf1no...
>
>
> "Moke G" <moke@gibboni.greatxscape .net> wrote in message
> news:c7FZi.38598$9Y3.18591@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
>> There are games out there with scenery just as complicated and dense (if
>> not more so) than FSX's major cities/airports and have frame rates far in
>> excess of FSX. To me, FSX scenery has been created in a very inefficient
>> manner and I'm sure MS could have done much better.
>>
>> Let's hope FS11 brings more REALISTIC scenery (utilising Google Earth
>> maybe?) and much more efficiently created to give us frame rates up in
>> the 30's and 40's as the kids are getting now with all these
>> shooting/killing type games.
>>
>>
>> Moke G.
>>
>
> You just don't understand Flight Simulation.
>
> I do believe you can buy Flight Games that do not have a problem with
> displaying complicated scenery at a high frame rate. In fact I'm sure you
> can.
>
> Flight Simulator on the other hand is not really a game. For example you
> can, just as a real life pilot, plot a course from A to B... along with a
> hundred or so other things to get you there.
>
> Flight simulator is just that, and to do that, it spends a lot of time
> figuring out where it is in relationship to the stars, moon, sun, ground
> etc. Then it has to get the weather, interface with other aircraft in the
> area, GPS stuff, ILS stuff. Figure out how much air is going over the
> wings and what to do about it. A lot of stuff that takes a fair bit of
> the computers time. Then when it isn't busy doing that it will throw
> stuff up on the screen.
>
> We want it so MS has in the last couple releases started to add a pretty
> face. FSX it is starting to do quite a nice job of that but that's not
> really what Flight Simulation is about.
>
> Suggest you turn off the Frame Rate Display (takes computing power anyway
> to calculate and display info) and enjoy the simulation. If you can't get
> smooth flight you can go back a series or two where the scenery isn't
> quite as complex. You could also use the excuse to get a real nice state
> of the art computer that might be good for a couple of years.
>
> Or you could buy some flight game 'shoot em up' that doesn't really model
> anything but satisfies your need to see a high frame rate display. Then
> you can tell your friends yours is bigger.
>
> --
> dave


Thanks for those comments. Firsts of all, I was not intending to imply that
FSX is a game, and secondly, the reason why I originally bought a PC was for
flight simulation purposes only. I do not play games on my PC and have
absolutely no interest in these shooting/killing games, or any other
computer game for that matter!

I understand your comments regarding the workload that a processor has to do
due to all the extra calculations neccesary in a flight simulator, but I did
notice how much better the frame rates were in FS9 for example compared to
FSX. In the cities with FS9, frame rates were really good, even with all the
sliders maxed out. Before you suggest that I return to FS9, I prefer FSX
because of the much improved scenery at altitude. We will just have to see
what the future brings I suppose and be a little patient.


Moke G.




"Andrew Sutcliffe"

Usenet Poster
andrew.sutcliffe@btconnect.com
Posted on:
Nov 11, 2007, 12:09 PM

Post #9 of 29 (68 views)
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Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to "Moke G"] Not logged in -   Reply 

2 things here.....

1. FS _IS_ a game....just look on the box it came in, it says so right
there!

2. The other games with high frame rates are limited in thier areas and can
be optimised accordingly. FS covers (almost) the whole world, in different
seasons and lighting/weather conditions). This is much more of a challenge.

I am sticking with FS9 as FSX didn't have much to entice me to buy it.

Lets hope for something major with the next installment! Wink

A.



"Moke G" <moke@gibboni.greatxscape .net> wrote in message
news:jcGZi.11277$ib1.4028@newsfe3-win.ntli.net...
>
> "Slap" <slap@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:rEFZi.199091$Da.2970@pd7urf1no...
>>
>>
>> "Moke G" <moke@gibboni.greatxscape .net> wrote in message
>> news:c7FZi.38598$9Y3.18591@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
>>> There are games out there with scenery just as complicated and dense (if
>>> not more so) than FSX's major cities/airports and have frame rates far
>>> in excess of FSX. To me, FSX scenery has been created in a very
>>> inefficient manner and I'm sure MS could have done much better.
>>>
>>> Let's hope FS11 brings more REALISTIC scenery (utilising Google Earth
>>> maybe?) and much more efficiently created to give us frame rates up in
>>> the 30's and 40's as the kids are getting now with all these
>>> shooting/killing type games.
>>>
>>>
>>> Moke G.
>>>
>>
>> You just don't understand Flight Simulation.
>>
>> I do believe you can buy Flight Games that do not have a problem with
>> displaying complicated scenery at a high frame rate. In fact I'm sure
>> you can.
>>
>> Flight Simulator on the other hand is not really a game. For example you
>> can, just as a real life pilot, plot a course from A to B... along with a
>> hundred or so other things to get you there.
>>
>> Flight simulator is just that, and to do that, it spends a lot of time
>> figuring out where it is in relationship to the stars, moon, sun, ground
>> etc. Then it has to get the weather, interface with other aircraft in
>> the area, GPS stuff, ILS stuff. Figure out how much air is going over
>> the wings and what to do about it. A lot of stuff that takes a fair bit
>> of the computers time. Then when it isn't busy doing that it will throw
>> stuff up on the screen.
>>
>> We want it so MS has in the last couple releases started to add a pretty
>> face. FSX it is starting to do quite a nice job of that but that's not
>> really what Flight Simulation is about.
>>
>> Suggest you turn off the Frame Rate Display (takes computing power anyway
>> to calculate and display info) and enjoy the simulation. If you can't
>> get smooth flight you can go back a series or two where the scenery isn't
>> quite as complex. You could also use the excuse to get a real nice state
>> of the art computer that might be good for a couple of years.
>>
>> Or you could buy some flight game 'shoot em up' that doesn't really model
>> anything but satisfies your need to see a high frame rate display. Then
>> you can tell your friends yours is bigger.
>>
>> --
>> dave
>
>
> Thanks for those comments. Firsts of all, I was not intending to imply
> that FSX is a game, and secondly, the reason why I originally bought a PC
> was for flight simulation purposes only. I do not play games on my PC and
> have absolutely no interest in these shooting/killing games, or any other
> computer game for that matter!
>
> I understand your comments regarding the workload that a processor has to
> do due to all the extra calculations neccesary in a flight simulator, but
> I did notice how much better the frame rates were in FS9 for example
> compared to FSX. In the cities with FS9, frame rates were really good,
> even with all the sliders maxed out. Before you suggest that I return to
> FS9, I prefer FSX because of the much improved scenery at altitude. We
> will just have to see what the future brings I suppose and be a little
> patient.
>
>
> Moke G.
>
>




Gonebush

Usenet Poster
Gonebush@paradisedotnetdotnz
Posted on:
Nov 11, 2007, 2:57 PM

Post #10 of 29 (67 views)
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Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to "Slap"] Not logged in -   Reply 

Right, first up, I don't know diddly-squat about the scenery engine room
of FS9 or FSX. But I think Moke G has raised some legitimate points.

It's always healthy to ask how much better things could be. If that
means questioning MS's FS architecture, fair enough. *Is* MSFS due for
rebuilding from the ground up in order to generate genuinely realistic
scenery?

Seems to me, reading through a local scenery developer's website, that
the existing architecture is creaking a bit. Would it not be better to
start again using scenery stuff which has a long future?

Forgive me if this gets up your nose but I'm a little suspicious of MS's
commitment to profound change. The Windows operating system is a
shambolic mess built on sand - desparately in need of restructuring on
a completely different basis. This could also be true of MSFS

Gonebush


> You just don't understand Flight Simulation.
>
> I do believe you can buy Flight Games that do not have a problem with
> displaying complicated scenery at a high frame rate. In fact I'm sure
> you can.
>
> Flight Simulator on the other hand is not really a game. For example
> you can, just as a real life pilot, plot a course from A to B... along
> with a hundred or so other things to get you there.
>
> Flight simulator is just that, and to do that, it spends a lot of time
> figuring out where it is in relationship to the stars, moon, sun, ground
> etc. Then it has to get the weather, interface with other aircraft in
> the area, GPS stuff, ILS stuff. Figure out how much air is going over
> the wings and what to do about it. A lot of stuff that takes a fair bit
> of the computers time. Then when it isn't busy doing that it will throw
> stuff up on the screen.
>
> We want it so MS has in the last couple releases started to add a pretty
> face. FSX it is starting to do quite a nice job of that but that's not
> really what Flight Simulation is about.
>
> Suggest you turn off the Frame Rate Display (takes computing power
> anyway to calculate and display info) and enjoy the simulation. If you
> can't get smooth flight you can go back a series or two where the
> scenery isn't quite as complex. You could also use the excuse to get a
> real nice state of the art computer that might be good for a couple of
> years.
>
> Or you could buy some flight game 'shoot em up' that doesn't really
> model anything but satisfies your need to see a high frame rate
> display. Then you can tell your friends yours is bigger.
>
> --
> dave
>
>
>



"MikeW"

Usenet Poster
MikeW@spammenot.con
Posted on:
Nov 11, 2007, 5:41 PM

Post #11 of 29 (66 views)
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Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to "Andrew Sutcliffe"] Not logged in -   Reply 

Andrew Sutcliffe wrote:
> 2 things here.....
>
> 1. FS _IS_ a game....just look on the box it came in, it says so right
> there!
>

Hi Andrew,

You obviously haven't met Crash Lander yet!

He has this 12 bore shotgun which he introduces to folks who call the
simulator a game. Smile
--
MikeW
Please don't feed the (Twin) trolls




Simon Robbins

Usenet Poster
simon@nospam.thanks
Posted on:
Nov 12, 2007, 8:16 AM

Post #12 of 29 (65 views)
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Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to "Moke G"] Not logged in -   Reply 

Moke G wrote:
> There are games out there with scenery just as complicated and dense (if not
> more so) than FSX's major cities/airports and have frame rates far in excess
> of FSX. To me, FSX scenery has been created in a very inefficient manner and
> I'm sure MS could have done much better.

If you want to document your algorithms for a more efficient large scale
scenery engine in a thesis and forward it to Microsoft, I'm sure they'd
be glad of it. Unless of course you don't actually know anything at all
about 3D scene graphs and are just speculating.

No offence intended, but without actually knowing in detail about how
complicated the process is, how can you suggest it is inefficient?

Si



"Moke G"

Usenet Poster
moke@gibboni.greatxscape .net
Posted on:
Nov 12, 2007, 12:46 PM

Post #13 of 29 (63 views)
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Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to Simon Robbins] Not logged in -   Reply 

 
"Simon Robbins" <simon@nospam.thanks> wrote in message
news:fh9jo2$283$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
> Moke G wrote:
>> There are games out there with scenery just as complicated and dense (if
>> not more so) than FSX's major cities/airports and have frame rates far in
>> excess of FSX. To me, FSX scenery has been created in a very inefficient
>> manner and I'm sure MS could have done much better.
>
> If you want to document your algorithms for a more efficient large scale
> scenery engine in a thesis and forward it to Microsoft, I'm sure they'd be
> glad of it. Unless of course you don't actually know anything at all
> about 3D scene graphs and are just speculating.
>
> No offence intended, but without actually knowing in detail about how
> complicated the process is, how can you suggest it is inefficient?
>
> Si

By directly comparing kids video games (high frame rates with detailed
scenery) to FSX (low frame rates with less detailed scenery).


Moke G.




"Quilljar"

Usenet Poster
Not@home.today
Posted on:
Nov 12, 2007, 1:53 PM

Post #14 of 29 (62 views)
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Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to "Moke G"] Not logged in -   Reply 

How can MSFSX have less detailed scenery.It has the whole world to contend
with, at all heights with realistic clouds. I have my criticisms of MS
flight sims, but not that it is in any way simple...

--
Yrs Quilly


"Moke G" <moke@gibboni.greatxscape .net> wrote in message
news:Dj0_i.39602$T8.8991@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
>
> "Simon Robbins" <simon@nospam.thanks> wrote in message
> news:fh9jo2$283$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
>> Moke G wrote:
>>> There are games out there with scenery just as complicated and dense (if
>>> not more so) than FSX's major cities/airports and have frame rates far
>>> in excess of FSX. To me, FSX scenery has been created in a very
>>> inefficient manner and I'm sure MS could have done much better.
>>
>> If you want to document your algorithms for a more efficient large scale
>> scenery engine in a thesis and forward it to Microsoft, I'm sure they'd
>> be glad of it. Unless of course you don't actually know anything at all
>> about 3D scene graphs and are just speculating.
>>
>> No offence intended, but without actually knowing in detail about how
>> complicated the process is, how can you suggest it is inefficient?
>>
>> Si
>
> By directly comparing kids video games (high frame rates with detailed
> scenery) to FSX (low frame rates with less detailed scenery).
>
>
> Moke G.
>
>




Simon Robbins

Usenet Poster
simon@nospam.thanks
Posted on:
Nov 12, 2007, 2:26 PM

Post #15 of 29 (62 views)
Shortcut  

Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to "Moke G"] Not logged in -   Reply 

Moke G wrote:
> By directly comparing kids video games (high frame rates with detailed
> scenery) to FSX (low frame rates with less detailed scenery).

But the engines and databases are very different. If you look at
something like counterstrike (for instance), you have a very small area
(by comparison) displayed from a very reduced field of view. Even in
outdoor FPS environments, the number of objects is nowhere near as many
as those for a highly detailed FS city, and the engine doesn't need to
do thousands of computations a second to decide what new scenery it
needs to load as you traverse it.

When you play something like Medal of Honour and you're down deep in the
ruins of a city, your path is often blocked from wandering outside of
the core gameplay area. There is nothing beyond that which you can see,
and if there is in the distance (that you can't get to), then it is
designed and drawn at a lower detail level. Those mountains or cityscape
are probably just a bitmap backdrop because there's no way for you to
get there. The backsides of the buildings you can't walk around don't
exist. They've been removed for efficiency. It's like a film set. By
contrast in FS you could go and land a helicopter anywhere. The
buildings you see in the distance have to be as detailed as the one
you're next to and those mountains need to be truly 3D, because you
could take off and fly to it. So they exist at differing levels of
details (LODs) so that they can be drawn efficiently, but the software
now has to constantly make decisions about what to load at which level
depending on how far you are away from each and every object. Then it
has to apply real-time lighting and load time dependent textures as you
could be there at any time of day. Shooter games usually have their
time of day set for any particular level. It all adds to the
efficiencies that those games can exploit that FS can't.

I'm sure there are always efficiencies to be made but looking at high
FPS shooters as evidence is a bit like looking at an 18 wheel truck and
saying if 14 of the wheels were removed it'd handle like a sportscar.
It's erroneous.

Si



Dudley Henriques

Usenet Poster
dhenriques@rcn.com
Posted on:
Nov 12, 2007, 2:32 PM

Post #16 of 29 (62 views)
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Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to "Moke G"] Not logged in -   Reply 

Moke G wrote:
> "Simon Robbins" <simon@nospam.thanks> wrote in message
> news:fh9jo2$283$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
>> Moke G wrote:
>>> There are games out there with scenery just as complicated and dense (if
>>> not more so) than FSX's major cities/airports and have frame rates far in
>>> excess of FSX. To me, FSX scenery has been created in a very inefficient
>>> manner and I'm sure MS could have done much better.
>> If you want to document your algorithms for a more efficient large scale
>> scenery engine in a thesis and forward it to Microsoft, I'm sure they'd be
>> glad of it. Unless of course you don't actually know anything at all
>> about 3D scene graphs and are just speculating.
>>
>> No offence intended, but without actually knowing in detail about how
>> complicated the process is, how can you suggest it is inefficient?
>>
>> Si
>
> By directly comparing kids video games (high frame rates with detailed
> scenery) to FSX (low frame rates with less detailed scenery).
>
>
> Moke G.
>
>
I'm sorry, but this is a flawed equation. The two scenarios, the flight
simulator and the "kid's game" actually are two entirely different
animals. The FS requires a much more involved programming engine.
Equating the two can't be done without some extreme "adjustments" to how
the comparison data base is established.

Dudley Henriques
MVP Microsoft Flight Simulator 2007

--
Dudley Henriques



the warlock society

Usenet Poster
shane@tlfst.com
Posted on:
Nov 12, 2007, 2:56 PM

Post #17 of 29 (62 views)
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Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to "Moke G"] Not logged in -   Reply 

 
Moke G wrote:
> "Simon Robbins" <simon@nospam.thanks> wrote in message
> news:fh9jo2$283$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
> > Moke G wrote:
> >> There are games out there with scenery just as complicated and dense (if
> >> not more so) than FSX's major cities/airports and have frame rates far in
> >> excess of FSX. To me, FSX scenery has been created in a very inefficient
> >> manner and I'm sure MS could have done much better.
> >
> > If you want to document your algorithms for a more efficient large scale
> > scenery engine in a thesis and forward it to Microsoft, I'm sure they'd be
> > glad of it. Unless of course you don't actually know anything at all
> > about 3D scene graphs and are just speculating.
> >
> > No offence intended, but without actually knowing in detail about how
> > complicated the process is, how can you suggest it is inefficient?
> >
> > Si
>
> By directly comparing kids video games (high frame rates with detailed
> scenery) to FSX (low frame rates with less detailed scenery).
>
>
> Moke G.

Have you ever heard the expression "comparing apples to oranges"?




gera

Usenet Poster
ggcalfa@cwp.net.pa
Posted on:
Nov 12, 2007, 3:14 PM

Post #18 of 29 (61 views)
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Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to Dudley Henriques] Not logged in -   Reply 

On Nov 12, 2:32 pm, Dudley Henriques <dhenriq...@rcn.com> wrote:
> Moke G wrote:
> > "Simon Robbins" <si...@nospam.thanks> wrote in message
> >news:fh9jo2$283$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
> >> Moke G wrote:
> >>> There are games out there with scenery just as complicated and dense (if
> >>> not more so) than FSX's major cities/airports and have frame rates far in
> >>> excess of FSX. To me, FSX scenery has been created in a very inefficient
> >>> manner and I'm sure MS could have done much better.
> >> If you want to document your algorithms for a more efficient large scale
> >> scenery engine in a thesis and forward it to Microsoft, I'm sure they'd be
> >> glad of it. Unless of course you don't actually know anything at all
> >> about 3D scene graphs and are just speculating.
>
> >> No offence intended, but without actually knowing in detail about how
> >> complicated the process is, how can you suggest it is inefficient?
>
> >> Si
>
> > By directly comparing kids video games (high frame rates with detailed
> > scenery) to FSX (low frame rates with less detailed scenery).
>
> > Moke G.
>
> I'm sorry, but this is a flawed equation. The two scenarios, the flight
> simulator and the "kid's game" actually are two entirely different
> animals. The FS requires a much more involved programming engine.
> Equating the two can't be done without some extreme "adjustments" to how
> the comparison data base is established.
>
> Dudley Henriques
> MVP Microsoft Flight Simulator 2007
>
> --
> Dudley Henriques

Hi guys......

I have been fooling with FS since 98 and the advance has been very
good up to FS9.........having said that
FSX is out of technology. The "tricks" of the trade ( 3D etc..) has
been changing by leaps and I seem to agree
that a real "revamp" in the whole development of the Sim is on its
way. I think that FSX could not be stopped for
financial reasons so MS came out with it...just economics. If you have
a real up to date, with so many addons,
FS9 is almost exactly the same.........If you start from Scratch
taking advantage of all new stuff a much better
simulator will imerge but MS is not the "innovative" type in Games,
Sims or anything concerning software......eventually
we will see a new and better Sim, do not doubt
it.....................Vista is no big deal too.




"RandyL"

Usenet Poster
rlink@cableone.net
Posted on:
Nov 12, 2007, 4:49 PM

Post #19 of 29 (61 views)
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Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to troppo1] Not logged in -   Reply 

That is one of the silliest replies that I have ever read. The last sentence
may be correct, everything before it makes no sense on multiple levels.

Randy L.
--
A problem is only a problem
if we make it a problem.

"troppo1" <troppo1@forums.simradar.com> wrote in message
news:1194796020.7607@forums.simradar.com...
> The shooting killing games get better FPS than FSX because the powers
> that be prefer kids today to shoot 10 or 15 poeple and not run a plane
> full of people into buildings killing 1000's.
> Pure economics really.
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Posted via the -Web to Usenet- forums at http://forums.simradar.com
> Visit www.simradar.com and try our Flight Simulation Search Engine!




"Moke G"

Usenet Poster
moke@gibboni.greatxscape .net
Posted on:
Nov 12, 2007, 6:43 PM

Post #20 of 29 (61 views)
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Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to Simon Robbins] Not logged in -   Reply 

 
"Simon Robbins" <simon@nospam.thanks> wrote in message
news:fha9e0$7ba$1$830fa79f@news.demon.co.uk...
> Moke G wrote:
>> By directly comparing kids video games (high frame rates with detailed
>> scenery) to FSX (low frame rates with less detailed scenery).
>
> But the engines and databases are very different. If you look at
> something like counterstrike (for instance), you have a very small area
> (by comparison) displayed from a very reduced field of view. Even in
> outdoor FPS environments, the number of objects is nowhere near as many as
> those for a highly detailed FS city, and the engine doesn't need to do
> thousands of computations a second to decide what new scenery it needs to
> load as you traverse it.
>
> When you play something like Medal of Honour and you're down deep in the
> ruins of a city, your path is often blocked from wandering outside of the
> core gameplay area. There is nothing beyond that which you can see, and if
> there is in the distance (that you can't get to), then it is designed and
> drawn at a lower detail level. Those mountains or cityscape are probably
> just a bitmap backdrop because there's no way for you to get there. The
> backsides of the buildings you can't walk around don't exist. They've
> been removed for efficiency. It's like a film set. By contrast in FS you
> could go and land a helicopter anywhere. The buildings you see in the
> distance have to be as detailed as the one you're next to and those
> mountains need to be truly 3D, because you could take off and fly to it.
> So they exist at differing levels of details (LODs) so that they can be
> drawn efficiently, but the software now has to constantly make decisions
> about what to load at which level depending on how far you are away from
> each and every object. Then it has to apply real-time lighting and load
> time dependent textures as you could be there at any time of day. Shooter
> games usually have their time of day set for any particular level. It all
> adds to the efficiencies that those games can exploit that FS can't.
>
> I'm sure there are always efficiencies to be made but looking at high FPS
> shooters as evidence is a bit like looking at an 18 wheel truck and saying
> if 14 of the wheels were removed it'd handle like a sportscar. It's
> erroneous.
>
> Si


Point taken Simon - thanks for the explanation.


Moke G.




"Moke G"

Usenet Poster
moke@gibboni.greatxscape .net
Posted on:
Nov 12, 2007, 6:55 PM

Post #21 of 29 (61 views)
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Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to the warlock society] Not logged in -   Reply 

Thanks everyone for your inputs to this discussion. I really wanted to
clarify the FPS situation in FSX, so I admit I was playing the Devil's
Advocate a bit!

Let's just hope MS don't stop developing their flight simulations and I'm
sure we all look forward to an exciting future, both in the advancement of
software and hardware.

FS certainly has come a long way over the last 15 years.


Moke G.




"Andrew Sutcliffe"

Usenet Poster
andrew.sutcliffe@btconnect.com
Posted on:
Nov 13, 2007, 1:46 PM

Post #22 of 29 (59 views)
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Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to "MikeW"] Not logged in -   Reply 

Then let him shoot away there Mike, but it wasn't me who put the GAME label
on the box! Wink

Andrew

> Hi Andrew,
>
> You obviously haven't met Crash Lander yet!
>
> He has this 12 bore shotgun which he introduces to folks who call the
> simulator a game. Smile




Dallas

Usenet Poster
Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com
Posted on:
Nov 13, 2007, 3:39 PM

Post #23 of 29 (59 views)
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Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to "Andrew Sutcliffe"] Not logged in -   Reply 

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:46:41 -0000, Andrew Sutcliffe wrote:

> Then let him shoot away there Mike, but it wasn't me who put the GAME label
> on the box! Wink

Games have challenges and keep score as you play them. FSX doesn't have
any of those things...

Oh, wait... yes it does.

Never mind.

--
Dallas



Simon Robbins

Usenet Poster
simon@nospam.thanks
Posted on:
Nov 15, 2007, 1:56 PM

Post #24 of 29 (59 views)
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Re: Poor frame rates - there's no excuse for it! [In reply to Dallas] Not logged in -   Reply 

Dallas wrote:
> Games have challenges and keep score as you play them. FSX doesn't have
> any of those things...
>
> Oh, wait... yes it does.
>
> Never mind.

If you really want FSX with the word "Game" on it, get "Microsoft ESP".
It's FSX without the game front end and is for commercial licencing
for sims and visualisations. (Only announced yesterday.)

Si




"copter.six"

Usenet Poster
copter.sixXXXXX@gmail.com
Posted on:
Nov 16, 2007, 11:11 PM

Post #25 of 29 (59 views)
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MS ESP [In reply to Simon Robbins] Not logged in -   Reply 

 
"Simon Robbins" <simon@nospam.thanks> wrote in message
news:fhi4om$7vl$3$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
> Dallas wrote:
>> Games have challenges and keep score as you play them. FSX doesn't have
>> any of those things...
>>
>> Oh, wait... yes it does.
>>
>> Never mind.
>
> If you really want FSX with the word "Game" on it, get "Microsoft ESP".
> It's FSX without the game front end and is for commercial licencing for
> sims and visualisations. (Only announced yesterday.)
>
> Si
>



Hi Si,

It looks like FS9 except it's $750.00 more expensive.

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2007/nov07/11-14ESPDebutPR.mspx

boB




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